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The end of online earnings thanks to a new law !

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#1 by Darkstar2 » Sat Dec 21, 2019 22:08

Well a new California bill was passed that may put MILLIONS of online workers out of the job next year and you can thank the leftists, you can thank the Democrats new move to increase poverty and take money from people who need it the most. If people vote dem next time around they are out of their ******* mind.

It will also have major impact on affiliate marketers (I'm surprised Rod you didn't post this before me, this is going to be a huge deal). Workers who are classified as independent contractors / freelancers, will be required to be classified as EMPLOYEES. In other words companies who use freelancers for the same line of work the company operates in will be required to consider them as employees, so they will be subject to California law, and therefore will be unable to pay pennies per hour.

This is a huge deal for millions of earners this is no joke or laughing matter.

This will put millions of people out of earnings.

What about Amazon mTurk ? Figure Eight ? Appen, UPWORK or any of the freelancing platforms out there. There is no way that companies will go from paying pennies an hour to minimum wage.

So this could mean the end of all GPT sites online as well. This has yet to be passed in Senate, which luckily is under control of Republicans. Though this bill (AB#5) Will benefit some industries and workers, it will be the opposite for millions of people who rely on the income, even though freelancers are being exploited with low wages, millions rely on this money, they will be out of money and end up with $0 earnings.

Expect products and services to skyrocket and become more expensive !!!
Expect online advertising costs to sky rocket.
Expect prices for items ordered online to go up! AMAZON for example will have to consider its drivers as employees. One of its courriers for Prime deliveries, Intercom, will have to consider its drivers as employees, so could this be the end of Amazon Prime free shipping program ?

This will be the end of crowd sourcing - Now companies will hire a closed team and consider them employees, it will be impossible now for any crowd sourcing company to operate the way they are based on this California law. You could only be hired as a freelancer / independent contractor if you are doing work which is NOT the company's primary activity. So a web design company could NOT hire web designers as FREELANCERS anymore.

The only way around this is for the freelancer to do work as a BUSINESS and offering your services to the trade you are working for, so if you are working as a web designer and want to be a freelancer, you'd have to open your company and offer those servicse as part of your trade, so for example you would open an LLC. I cannot see the millions of people in different countries go through the trouble.

So yes folks, I said it time and time again, GPT is dying, but if this bill passes this seals the deal, there will be no more ySense, no more NB, no more surveys online, no more tasks online, no more nothing......... Companies will either have to consider you "employees" and abide by the same laws OR they would have to stop business and hire a small group of employees, considerably increase the prices to their clients, effectively putting millions of people out of the job and less work.¸

Apparently the bill passed already.

It's old news, I'm surprised nobody mentioned it yet.

https://qz.com/1706754/california-senate-passes-ab5-to-turn-independent-contractors-into-employees/

Many bloggers, freelance writers will be out of the job:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/16/vox-media-to-cut-hundreds-of-freelance-jobs-ahead-of-californias-ab5.html

More to read
AB5 gig work bill: All your questions answered - SFChronicle.com

This bill is said to protect workers against exploitation ! BUT..........There is no ways companies will afford to keep all freelancers employed and paid accordingly, so this will put MILLIONS of online and offline freelancers out of the ************* job.

If you are a freelance QA tester for one of many companies online, this will be the end, companies will either have to treat you as employes and pay you minimum wage, OR they will have to put you out of the job and hire in house testers.

The gig (economy) is up: New California law upgrades Lyft, Uber, other app serfs to staff • The Register


So if you are a freelancer online, tasker, survey panelist, writer, translator, transcriber, affiliate marketer, basically ANY position where you are considered an independent contractor (all of us here), our time to earn online will come to an end. There is no way these companies will convert us all to employees and pay us $12/hour.

I would like to hear the opinion of the admin here ho has been quite silent lately.......

Companies like Prodege, Figure Eight, basically ALL rewards sites are all negatively impacted by this new law, what will happen next ?

What will happen to the millions of poor in some countries who relied on income online to put food ont he table, what will happen when one say suddenly they are told that they can earn no more due to this new law !

This new law may be the final nail in the coffin for ONLINE business.

Some might see this as the end of exploitation - as companies have been using this loophole to save millions of $ - BUT this exploitation helps those who have no other income, and in some countries this income represents several times their minimum wage.

So what will be our faith here ?

Is it over for Prodege ? I cannot imagine Prodege converting their members to employees and paying them $12/hour.

So if there is still an admin around, it would be nice for them to weigh in.

I read online that this will affect bug bounty and crowd sourced platforms.

This is California law, but apparently it will have a domino effect and apply eventually to all states.
So hopefully this and other sites will find loopholes to become exempt from this.

Whoever came with this law (I feel like adding expletives and naming names, but can't) should think about poverty and the millions of people relying on income online and exempt a few companies (rewards sites, crowd sourced sites, etc.) they should show some fu**ing mercy !!!!

This comes into effect January 1st, 2020.........

So what is going to happen to this site, I think we deserve some answers.

And please don't report this post or shoot the messenger, I am just reporting news!

BTW, this new law that will put millions of people out of work next year can be solely blamed on DEMOCRATS, you can thank those RATS once again for making the rich richer and the poor poorer, this is just a sneak peak at what's to come. If you are a US freelancer, I hope you remember this next time you vote, you would be out of your bloody mind if you vote Democrat from hereon. So here they are trying to impeach a President over something that is NOT a crime, over bullshit and propaganda, whilst at the same time passing bills to destroy millions of people struggling to make ends meet online freelancing. It's time for people to stop supporting fake news and a party that wants to turn a nation into a communist state and make millions of people poor - Remember this next time you circle the party.

Next year, we might all be out of the job because of this law. I don't think even our own Prime Minister here would pass such a thing even though he supports the far left :/

//UPDATE: IN addition to the above, I have new information, there may be some companies that are in the grey area, outside the purview of the bill, for example Crowd sourcing platforms, because technically the pay rate is set by authors/requesters and not the company directly, so MAYBE this is a loophole that will allow Figure Eight and Amazon mTurk to continue operating. Question is what about surveys, it MAY fall under the grey area too not sure on that.

As far as platforms like UPWORK, FREELANCER, FIVER, etc. that is going to be a problem because it is the companies directly setting the pay rate.

SO if you are an online freelancer working directly for the client, who is controlling the pay rate, you will be out of the job unless your client decides to classify you as employee and pay you based on state minimum wage (UNLIKELY).

BUT it's unclear yet how this bill will be enforced though.
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#2 by chandramohancc » Sun Dec 22, 2019 07:16

:o :o
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#3 by valerie » Sun Dec 22, 2019 08:37

Looks like the primary concern is with large companies such as uber and other ride
share and food delivery services. In this regard, it is understandable but still a bit
iffy.

For example, I have a friend that is a nuclear engineer. He contracts jobs and travels
every so many years. In other word he may work at a nuclear plant a year or several
years. He is getting paid a salary. A very high salary. He does pay for his insurance,
etc. For him, paying for things like insurance, is a drop in the bucket since he receives
very high salary. So what I am saying is, he is a real example of a real contractor.

GPT was never meant as a contractor program. As a contractor, you are in fact liable
for the contract you agree to. In GPT we are not in contract. We're not forced to do
anything. That goes for surveys and tasks.

GPT is an agreement, not a contract. Yes, there is a difference. We agree to do a
survey and/or task/offer, for the stated amount or we simply close it out and not
do it.

In a contract, you can be taken to court and sued. You are liable for what you
contracted to do.

So I suspect some of the above I stated, is where the grounds land.

The issue these days as you Darkstar2 have made very clear, you are relying on GPT
as a 100% source of income. GPT was never intended as a 100% source of income.
It was meant as extra money in one's spare time.

The same thing has happen with McDonalds and other fast food joints. With those
the complaints by workers is higher wages. But these fast food joints was never
intended for life wages. Just like car hops working for tips in the old days.

Well, I gotta run out for a bit. Interesting topic.
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#4 by tasman1 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 13:28

Pension ? Hope ? More fishing ? Looks like brighter future on horizon .Time to f... computer and internet ?
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#5 by valerie » Sun Dec 22, 2019 15:01

'm back and you never knew I was gone. lol

A point I wanted to make or I should say, mention is in regards to outside the USA.

For years manufacturers moved outside the USA to countries such as China in which they
could get cheap work.

So what would be stopping Prodege to move to China or any number of other countries?

In fact, as of now, this is based on California. What if they moved to Florida?

You've been saying GPT is dead, for as long as I can recall. GPT is not dead. It is still alive.

Could it die tomorrow? Yes, so could all of us. But as the old saying goes, never put all your
eggs in one basket.
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#6 by chandramohancc » Sun Dec 22, 2019 15:56

Thanks Valerie for this soothening information
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#7 by tasman1 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 17:38

Darkstar , relax a bit , end of the world will not come in our lifetime

Festive season is here , relax , live life a bit , forget work , if it come ok if not it will come in 2020

Life is short , few buck more or less for this year is not so important , what it can change in reality , nothing
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#8 by Darkstar2 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 21:04

valerie wrote: Looks like the primary concern is with large companies such as uber and other ride
share and food delivery services. In this regard, it is understandable but still a bit
iffy.

Uber was just an EXAMPLE, the law applies to ANY company that classifies workers as independent contractors or freelancers. They did not say it applies to large corporations or Uber like companies. ANY company under California state law. There are some industries that are exempt, but mostly professional (Lawyer, Doctor, Dentist, etc.), and other companies exempt must pass a test to meet all requirements. There are other exemptions if the freelancer has a registered company and offering his services in the same trade so for instance if you are a web designer, you can open an LLC and offer services as Web Designer. Also it applies to companies which offers freelance positions in the same fields they are hiring for, so a web design company cannot classify web designers as freelancers, unless they operate as a business, and not an individual.

Other articles mentioned crowd sourcing, bug bounty, and other companies hiring online.

There are already other states that passed this years ago, like Arizona, etc, eventually it will apply to most/all states.

As far as Figure Eight, it might be a grey area, because it is not figure eight that sets pay, it is the individual task authors, SO this means they may be outside the scope of the new bill. So in terms of tasks and surveys it is a big question mark, but one fact is that the bill will concern millions of both online and offline freelancers/contractors.
It is unclear if it concerns only California state workers or if it applies to contractors outside state, though from my understanding of the article, it applies to the company within state law, if so, then it would extend to basically ANY contractor from any location.

As far as Uber, Lyft, etc, they are investing millions of $ to fight this bill to overturn it, they said they had no intentions of classifying their drivers as employees :)

Another interesting fact that was not discussed, CrowdFlower (now Figure Eight) was involved in lawsuits on the same matter, just google "crowdflower litigation" and you will see a full list of cases. Crowd Sourced companies are being sued, so it is an industry that may be at risk. These lawsuits occurred years ago, but they are interesting to read.
Now google "crowdflower settlement", the first results in google contains this:

Quote:
CrowdFlower agreed to pay $585,507 to settle a class action lawsuit brought by crowdsourced workers who claim they were misclassified as independent contractors and paid less than the legal minimum wage, according to court records. ...

If you dig deeper you will see that most workers got only a few dollars, and some got over $5k each, though class action suits mostly benefits the lawyers, but by principle the whole crowd sourced industry is based on exploitation, and a lot of companies online use this loophole to classify workers as contractors to avoid paying them fair wages.
This is the reason why most international members do not sue them, they NEED the money, this is PROBABLY (theory) why all the good tasks and earnings from tasks go to international members (non tier 1).

SO after this bill passes in January, it is likely that there would be more similar lawsuits against such platforms. The only option I guess is for companies to relocate in areas outside the jurisdiction of the law, though if most states adopt the law, it will be pointless, so they'd have to relocate in another country. AGAIN, people can thank the Democrats for this bill which will put millions of freelancers out of the job. Some people make it a career to work as a freelancer, there are specific trade skills you can do if you have them, there are entire marketplaces based on freelance work.
On UPWORK for example the MINIMUM hourly clients can set is $3. It's very common to see companies crowd sourcing work and targeting international crowd, who would gladly work for $3/hour for a job that normally should pay $20/hr on the marketplace.

Quote:
GPT was never meant as a contractor program. As a contractor, you are in fact liable
for the contract you agree to. In GPT we are not in contract. We're not forced to do
anything. That goes for surveys and tasks.

This is a grey area and to be seen. Actually we are bound by a legal contract - we are not FORCED to do work, BUT by using this site we are legally bound by its terms of use in relation to the tasks, offers and surveys. The site provides a payment for service rendered, but here is where things are a grey area - Prodege does not provide the work directly - it relies on 3rd party partners to provide the work.........BUT...........if those 3rd parties are inside the scope of the new law, it means they can no longer operate the way they do. This site and ALL GPT sites rely on 3rd party.... NOW here is where it gets more interesting - We are paid by the unit, this is not an HOURLY type work....It is not specifically mentioned in the law that it applies to both hourly and commission/by the unit type of work, so this is yet to be determined how things will work out, all I know is that our work is AT RISK, maybe GPT can fall under a grey area and nothing will change, we'll see. How successful will Uber, Lyft, etc, be to fight for overturning the bill, in my opinion they are wasting money. They are pledging $30 million each - Waste of time. Here is another risk, it may come indirectly - EVEN if there are companies outside the scope of the new bill, they are likely more liable now to get sued (refer to the CrowdFlower case). So if this happens, it would put those companies at risk, and may wipe out crowdsourcing industry.

Quote:
In a contract, you can be taken to court and sued. You are liable for what you
contracted to do.

We are proposed offers and tasks with specific work to do and in return get paid money for service rendered. This IS a legally binding contract. In theory, if you do work without receiving pay, you CAN sue. Question is, will a person sue a GPT because they did not get paid their $2 for a completed survey ? Unlikely, it's going to cost them more money in legal fees - LOTS LOTS LOTS of money, which is why class action suits are more common, BUT in the end the lawyer gets the big piece of the cake and the plaintifs represented by the suit get peanuts, so it's never a good idea to sue unless it is a significant amount of money or if you can prove damages, financial loss, etc....... So individual GPTs are at low risk for being sued - However, crowd sourced companies (the providers of work) will be at a higher risk once the bill is in effect in the new year.

Quote:
The issue these days as you Darkstar2 have made very clear, you are relying on GPT
as a 100% source of income. GPT was never intended as a 100% source of income.
It was meant as extra money in one's spare time.

You would be surprised Valerie. Maybe for Tier 1 countries, but for non Tier 1 countries they rely heavily and solely on online work - Ask many of the international members in specific countries, the money they earn on GPT is what is supporting their families, putting food on the table, etc. YES it is unusual for GPT to be 100% source of income for a Tier 1, but my case is an unfortunate situation that I will not discuss - Unfortunately we do not have Trump here, we have a Prime Minister that has only but put this country into pile of debts and deficit and gauging Canadian tax payers of money. Canadian economy is not as strong as expected, some provinces have had higher unemployment rate this year. in fact the general unemployment rate is up, this is what happens when Liberals run the country.
YET the Canadian government has TONS of money to help people outside the country, opening the flood gates and throwing money they claimed they do not have, instead of helping its own people first, instead of addressing the issue of poverty, health care, etc. There are LOTS of Canadians relying on supplement income. For so many years I have had a main job + GPT as supplement income, unfortunately for now, it is GPT main income and going through my savings. In some poor countries, they have no choice, and gladly would work on those low paid jobs, sadly, even though they are exploited, they know that they would be in dire situations without that money, and sadly companies are making billiions of $ exploiting this market.

Quote:
Well, I gotta run out for a bit. Interesting topic.

Why certainly Valerie, all my topics are interesting :P
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#9 by Darkstar2 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 21:16

valerie wrote: 'm back and you never knew I was gone. lol

That's how it is usually :lol: It's like you teleported and came back :P

But who knows maybe come January 1st, 2020, you will be considered an employee and paid $12/hour :lol:

Quote:
A point I wanted to make or I should say, mention is in regards to outside the USA.

For years manufacturers moved outside the USA to countries such as China in which they
could get cheap work.

EXACTLY, but for all this time companies did not even require to move, in non physical labour markets, for instance where work can be done and transmitted electronically. Take for example some freelance marketplaces like UPWORK, a developer job is listed, if it were a Tier 1 submitting a proposal, it would likely be $20/hour or more....The whole freelancing marketplace is an auction, and sometimes companies go to the lowest bidder more than the actual quality, so an international worker may propose $5/hour-$10/hour. I have seen QA testing companies hire freelance developers for $10/hr~$15/hr, in a job that is worth several times more. Think about it, there are some companies that might actually benefit from this new law. There are some companies that are paying freelancers above minimum wage, these companies might say "OK I will classify you as an employee, but now instead of paying you $25/hour, I will pay you state minimum wage......." You might think they would lose workers like that ? WRONG, there are others who would gladly take the job for $12/hour minimum wage, so it is a win-win situation for the company.

Quote:
So what would be stopping Prodege to move to China or any number of other countries?

:P Doesn't Prodege already have offices in different countries ? I do not believe them moving their US HQ to a different country would make a difference, because Prodege does not provide the work, it is 3rd parties, so Prodege would not fall under the scope of the bill, UNLESS they are directly hiring independent contractors. For example, if Prodege classifies their developers or any of their workers as contractors, they will have to abide by the new rules in January 2020, or they would have to pass the ABC test to see if they fall under any exemptions.

Quote:
In fact, as of now, this is based on California. What if they moved to Florida?

Moving anywhere in the US is a bad move, because eventually this law will be passed on most / all states. It passed years ago in different states, now California. The best bet would be to relocate outside US OR to hire good lawyers and find loopholes :P

Quote:
You've been saying GPT is dead, for as long as I can recall. GPT is not dead. It is still alive.

It is dying yes, things are not as they were before, some good routers have went out of business over the years, some good requesters have left the task platform over the years.......Survey routers are becoming greedy and lowering their rates...... Even an owner of a long standing GPT site told me directly that things are slowing down because there less advertisers / publishers and MORE workers joining, so work dilution is increasing much faster than new work.
Work dilution is very unhealthy now.
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#10 by glevinp » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:20

US & CA Members Only – We’ve Updated Our Privacy Policy
by ySensePosted onDecember 31, 2019
Prodege Hero Image
Thank you for being a valuable member of our community. We wish you a happy new year filled with rewarding moments!

As part of our ongoing commitment to earn your loyalty every day, we want to make sure you are aware that we are updating our Privacy Policy across our family of Prodege Brands.

Check out our shiny new video on the topic here:


The new version of our Privacy Policy will be immediately effective for new members. It will be effective on January 1, 2020 for all existing members. You can already view the new Privacy Policy here:
Privacy Policy | Prodege : Prodege

The updates continue our commitment to transparency and your privacy. It explains, among other things, how we’re complying with the new California Consumer Privacy Act and how we collect, store and use data to provide you with rewarding offers.

We wish you a happy holiday and a very rewarding new year!

Thank you for your loyalty!

Team ySense
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#11 by Darkstar2 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 17:44

glevinp wrote: US & CA Members Only – We’ve Updated Our Privacy Policy
by ySensePosted onDecember 31, 2019
Prodege Hero Image
Thank you for being a valuable member of our community. We wish you a happy new year filled with rewarding moments!

This is off topic and has nothing to do with California Bill 5. What you are referring to is compliance with
California Consumer Privacy Act , something totally different, the privacy terms are in regards to data collection and privacy in compliance with the law, this is another topic.

As to California Bill 5, it only concerns California based workers classified as independent contractors, so nobody on this site should be concerned, other than California state contractors hired by Prodege.
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#12 by proadco » Tue Dec 31, 2019 19:10

Quote:
It will also have major impact on affiliate marketers (I'm surprised Rod you didn't post this before me,
this is going to be a huge deal)

Well, Darkstar2, when people tell me they don/t need their own personal business website, they can sink or swim.

People love throwing good money after bad money buying advertising for one time hits.
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#13 by Darkstar2 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 19:15

proadco wrote:
Quote:
It will also have major impact on affiliate marketers (I'm surprised Rod you didn't post this before me,
this is going to be a huge deal)

Well, Darkstar2, when people tell me they don/t need their own personal business website, they can sink or swim.

People love throwing good money after bad money buying advertising for one time hits.

What does this have to do though ? But anyhow I guess since you are not in California that bill might not concern you after all unless your state passes such bill, it's likely eventually all states will have that law. But now Uber and others are fighting this bill as unconstitutional. But right now affiliate marketers or any online workers classified as independent contractors / freelancers, who are based in California are concerned by the new bill and will likely be out of the job.

What a bad start to 2020 for some though.
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#14 by Billj » Fri Jan 03, 2020 02:04

The world is a FREE WORLD although some people always try to control it. There is always a workaround to any problem. A weakness of one company is an opportunity to another. I am not from the US and I know the US is somehow the founder of the Internet, Affiliate Marketing, Freelancing etc. Law makers might think they have control over the Internet and they can just tamper with it as they wish.

"England invented soccer but soccer does NOT belong to them. Soccer is owned by Spain, Italy, Brazil, Portugal, Argentina and the world at large". Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionnel Messi are not from England. The only thing this new law will do is to shift to the Real Owners of the internet to China, Singapore, Japan, etc. Paypal stops or prohibits most african countries like mine from receiving cash online but this is Payoneers strength and Business model.

The US should be wise enough to keep their control before things become funny. Imagine each country building its own GOOGLE, FACEBOOK, INSTAGRAM, AMAZON. This is what this will simply translate to. The fact is, at one point we will have Regional Closed Internets all over the world.

Any law maker who thinks the Internet is inconveniencing his or her business should never think that he or she can fix this problem by shutting down the Internet. Market Prices are regulated by demand and supply.

"You cannot kill exchange of goods and services".
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