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Perplexity

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#1 by jeff120 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 00:39

I don't think the post I wanna write is good for this forum so I will just ask if it is :

Can we talk here, after this topic will be closed (after the first moderator clear reply), in another topic about SCAM sites that advertise on ClixSense ? I mean, maybe they are not, but can we have our own opinions ? And help members not being scammed "through ClixSense ?". Well, don't get me wrong : I said that just because when they will end up paying some few bucks on a site that was advertising here, and they got there through that advertise, on ClixSense, they will end up saying : "Oh, this service scammed me!".

Hope for fast reply. It would be a nice and useful subject to talk about.

:cs:heers!
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#2 by valerie » Fri Dec 30, 2011 00:45

I don't think so.

Most people don't know what a scam is. They tend to holler scam when they have a dispute, or they rip the program off then they get mad when they are given the boot, disgruntled members, and so on and so on.

I learned a long time ago, not to believe everything you hear and everything you read.

Do you know what a scam is?
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#3 by jeff120 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 00:53

I find your question pretty rude. I mean, if I ask this in the post, and I even discussed with you on another topic about scammer/scams, you are asking me to find your answer at "what a scam is".

But, on the other side, you may be referring at another thing that I would miss.

For me, a scam is that procedure through someone gets ripped off of something invested in it : doesn't matter if it is time, money or addresses.

Anyway, if you wanted to point another sense of your question, please forgive my ignorance and clear us! :cs:heers!
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#4 by valerie » Fri Dec 30, 2011 01:21

I think what you are asking, can you discuss with other members about scam programs and name or list
those programs you believe to be a scam. That was my understanding of what you are asking.

I pointed out, that most people do not know what a scam really is. The point being, there is a legal definition
of scam. The admin of ClixSense does not want such a topic discussion and rightfully so. I was also pointing
out that some members may come along and say a program is a scam, when it really isn't a scam. Some times
people get mad at a program or even the program owner, and they will tell others it is a scam when in reality
it is not a scam.

I ask you if you knew what a scam is, for a reason. The reason being, you are not the only one that is going
to read this message. Others in the ClixSense forum may read it also.

There are legalities when calling a program a scam when it is not. Unfortunately, a scam is very difficult to
detect. Many programs will save themselves legally, from being deemed a scam, due to their fine print.

There is also something called 'Fraud' and that can work hand in hand with 'Scam'.

Scam is legally defined as the intention to commit fraud.

Therefore, if a program does not pay it's members, is that program a scam?
Well, that is a very big question in which the legal answer may or may not be so clear.

One might rather say, 'I joined a program and it did not pay me' as opposed to 'I joined a program and it is
a scam'.

I wasn't being rude. Sorry you took it that way.
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#5 by valerie » Fri Dec 30, 2011 01:25

By the way, just to make it more clear, you can discuss what a scam is, what fraud is, things to look for that may be scam related or to beware of. But you can't name names nor program names.
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#6 by rlutia66 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 02:24

I agree with you, Valerie.

I would summarize it as:
People should try to get more information about sites they are joining before spending time, money or sending contact info. If they don't do that and they get burned, maybe that will teach them a lesson, even if it's to late. There are dedicated sites and lots of blogs on the internet that keep evidence of scam proven sites. Just google it and you can check the lists there.

After all, when you find something promising you'll be having hundreds of dollars in no time, and you don't stop for a second and ask yourself "where from?", how is that called? Just naivety?
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#7 by valerie » Fri Dec 30, 2011 02:58

It's really kind of a touchy subject because the legal end of it is very touchy.
The internet is still so new and there are so many programs out there and in different countries, it can be really
trying for the law to succeed in punishing scamsters.

Let's call someone Joe. Joe decides he want to launch a PTC program. Joe is a good guy. Joe is honest.
Joe buys a PTC script and launches his new PTC. He's real excited and all his intentions are great. Joe
is going to make his PTC the best PTC online. Joe wants to make a profit but he is also excited about his
members making a profit too. Everything goes along good at first. Then Joe runs into problems. Joe
realizes his math was not quite on target and he has been paying out more than what he really should
be. Also, advertisers at first were buying ads but now the ad buys have slacked off to almost nil. To top
it off, Joe is having payment processor problems because of no fault of his own. Finally, Joe can barely
afford to cover his hosting fees each month. Plus, he has lots of members that have reached payout,
but he has no funds to pay them.

Is Joe a scamster? Is Joe's PTC program a scam?

Well, I'd have to say, no it's not. Joe probably has a tos on site that even says, you may not make any
money at all. His tos might also say, he is not liable for internet interruptions, errors, unforeseen issues.

But what about the law? What about the general members of Joe's program? What do they see?
What do they say?

Most probable the law is going to be on Joe's side. The law will have to prove that Joe had the INTENTION
to commit fraud, to scam his members. That is certainly going to be hard to prove since Joe never had
an intention to scam or fraud anyone. He really thought his program was going to fly.

Unfortunately, many of his members that are waiting on their payout are going to holler scam. Poor Joe.
He is going to be known online as a scamster simply because some members did not get their $1 or $2 or
$10 payout. Even tho legally, he is not.

People get very irate when it comes to money and it does not matter how small the amount is. If they
think for one second they are not going to get their ten cents that is owed to them, they'll holler scam.

Now lets look at Fred...

Fred wants to make a lot of money. Fred is a deviant. Fred does not care who he hurts. Fred is pretty
cool, he's a smooth talker. Fred comes up with an idea on how to scam thousands of people out of money.
Fred launches a PTC program. He raves and carries on like it's the hottest thing since slice bread. He
charges big upgrade fees. He sells bogus referrals. He pays his members tho....yep, he pays them when
they request it...he even does automatic payouts and his payouts are set nice and low. His members
are smiling from ear to ear...telling everyone hey look I got paid and so people are joining left and right.
Heck, Fred even offers special deals and contests to draw in the crowd. More people are joining and ole
scamster Fred is making a mint. He is rolling in dough. Everything is going great for everyone. After
about six months, Fred increases the payout limit. Fred increase the cost of upgrade options. Heck,
ole Fred has even moved from the Belize. Next thing you know, it's been months since Fred has paid
anyone at all. Fred makes excuses of course. When his members stop upgrading, he then offers them
a deal they can't refuse....instead of $50 upgrade, we're going to only charge $10 but only when you
act quickly. Fred makes several more thousands of dollars. After all, why would anyone not trust Fred?
Fred has been great. Fred has always paid out on time. Fred is just going thru some small issues right
now. While Fred's members are wondering when they are going to get paid, Fred is out on his yacht
in Belize, sipping wine, women feeding him grapes, music playing. Wasn't it great that Fred came up
with such a plan? Next thing ya know POOF....program is gone.

Was Fred's program a scam?

YES!

Can Fred be held liable by law and can it be proven that Fred had INTENTION to commit fraud?

Well, that's a tough answer. Maybe yes because the law could see where that money was going from
the get go. The law could see that Fred was not appropriating his funds correctly. It's really hard
to say yes or no in regards to him being found guilty in a court of law.
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#8 by jeff120 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 03:10

rlutia66 wrote: I agree with you, Valerie.

I would summarize it as:
People should try to get more information about sites they are joining before spending time, money or sending contact info. If they don't do that and they get burned, maybe that will teach them a lesson, even if it's to late. There are dedicated sites and lots of blogs on the internet that keep evidence of scam proven sites. Just google it and you can check the lists there.

After all, when you find something promising you'll be having hundreds of dollars in no time, and you don't stop for a second and ask yourself "where from?", how is that called? Just naivety?

That was what I wanted to point. This topic to get those discussions about scams.

But anyway, that's no problem. Valerie, you wrote too many words just to clear me something like what's a scam... it wasn't a need of it, but thank you anyway. This topic may be locked.
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#9 by jeff120 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 03:18

valerie wrote: It's really kind of a touchy subject because the legal end of it is very touchy.
The internet is still so new and there are so many programs out there and in different countries, it can be really
trying for the law to succeed in punishing scamsters.

Let's call someone Joe. Joe decides he want to launch a PTC program. Joe is a good guy. Joe is honest.
Joe buys a PTC script and launches his new PTC. He's real excited and all his intentions are great. Joe
is going to make his PTC the best PTC online. Joe wants to make a profit but he is also excited about his
members making a profit too. Everything goes along good at first. Then Joe runs into problems. Joe
realizes his math was not quite on target and he has been paying out more than what he really should
be. Also, advertisers at first were buying ads but now the ad buys have slacked off to almost nil. To top
it off, Joe is having payment processor problems because of no fault of his own. Finally, Joe can barely
afford to cover his hosting fees each month. Plus, he has lots of members that have reached payout,
but he has no funds to pay them.

Is Joe a scamster? Is Joe's PTC program a scam?

Well, I'd have to say, no it's not. Joe probably has a tos on site that even says, you may not make any
money at all. His tos might also say, he is not liable for internet interruptions, errors, unforeseen issues.

But what about the law? What about the general members of Joe's program? What do they see?
What do they say?

Most probable the law is going to be on Joe's side. The law will have to prove that Joe had the INTENTION
to commit fraud, to scam his members. That is certainly going to be hard to prove since Joe never had
an intention to scam or fraud anyone. He really thought his program was going to fly.

Unfortunately, many of his members that are waiting on their payout are going to holler scam. Poor Joe.
He is going to be known online as a scamster simply because some members did not get their $1 or $2 or
$10 payout. Even tho legally, he is not.

People get very irate when it comes to money and it does not matter how small the amount is. If they
think for one second they are not going to get their ten cents that is owed to them, they'll holler scam.

Now lets look at Fred...

Fred wants to make a lot of money. Fred is a deviant. Fred does not care who he hurts. Fred is pretty
cool, he's a smooth talker. Fred comes up with an idea on how to scam thousands of people out of money.
Fred launches a PTC program. He raves and carries on like it's the hottest thing since slice bread. He
charges big upgrade fees. He sells bogus referrals. He pays his members tho....yep, he pays them when
they request it...he even does automatic payouts and his payouts are set nice and low. His members
are smiling from ear to ear...telling everyone hey look I got paid and so people are joining left and right.
Heck, Fred even offers special deals and contests to draw in the crowd. More people are joining and ole
scamster Fred is making a mint. He is rolling in dough. Everything is going great for everyone. After
about six months, Fred increases the payout limit. Fred increase the cost of upgrade options. Heck,
ole Fred has even moved from the Belize. Next thing you know, it's been months since Fred has paid
anyone at all. Fred makes excuses of course. When his members stop upgrading, he then offers them
a deal they can't refuse....instead of $50 upgrade, we're going to only charge $10 but only when you
act quickly. Fred makes several more thousands of dollars. After all, why would anyone not trust Fred?
Fred has been great. Fred has always paid out on time. Fred is just going thru some small issues right
now. While Fred's members are wondering when they are going to get paid, Fred is out on his yacht
in Belize, sipping wine, women feeding him grapes, music playing. Wasn't it great that Fred came up
with such a plan? Next thing ya know POOF....program is gone.

Was Fred's program a scam?

YES!

Can Fred be held liable by law and can it be proven that Fred had INTENTION to commit fraud?

Well, that's a tough answer. Maybe yes because the law could see where that money was going from
the get go. The law could see that Fred was not appropriating his funds correctly. It's really hard
to say yes or no in regards to him being found guilty in a court of law.

What you pointed here was not what I wanted to tell you, but anyway, thank you for your answers.

It doesn't matter anymore what I wanted to point, so this topic may be locked/closed. :cs:heers!
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#10 by valerie » Fri Dec 30, 2011 09:38

Ok, I guess I did not understand what it was exactly you were asking.
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